John Hammond: New Frontiers in Cybersecurity Education

[00:00:01] Welcome to the Phillip Wylie Show. Take a look behind the curtain of professional hacking and hear compelling discussions with guests from diverse backgrounds who share a common curiosity and passion for challenges and their job. And now here's your host, offensive security professional, educator, mentor, and author, Phillip Wylie.

[00:00:33] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Phillip Wylie Show. Today I'm very excited to have John Hammond joining. So if you don't know who John Hammond is, you will before this episode is over with, but John and I know each other from the cybersecurity community. John does a lot of great contributions as far as like different research, doing POCs on different exploits that come out, providing a lot of good educational content, and as well as a great content creator. So we've got the, I got the honor of

[00:01:02] interviewing John today. And so John was on my old podcast, but a lot has changed since then and he's got some exciting news to share. So welcome to the show, John.

[00:01:11] Well, goodness. Hey, thank you so much, Phillip. Great to be here with you. Thank you for letting me join the party. Uh, and hello everyone. I super appreciate you. Hey, let me hang out for a bit.

[00:01:20] Yeah, it's good. It's great to have you on and it's amazing to see all the stuff you're doing and we'll kind of get into one of your latest projects here shortly, but each episode I have my guest share their hacker origin story.

[00:01:30] So if you wouldn't mind kind of sharing your hacker origin story, kind of where you started up until where you are today.

[00:01:36] Oh, goodness. Well, if it's all right, I'll try to work almost in reverse or at least, I don't know, set the stage as to what I'm up to today and really how it all kind of happened and where I got here.

[00:01:45] But look now for the day job, I'm working over at a company called Huntress.

[00:01:49] Um, that's more like sort of a managed security platform.

[00:01:53] Think EDR, MDR.

[00:01:55] Um, I tend to be one of the principal security researchers there, which is very flattering and a lot of fun, but balancing, oh, the on keyboard, real cool technical work while we're cutting up malware and chasing hackers.

[00:02:07] But I also kind of wear a hat for more marketing or PR or at least, hey, conversation and awareness stuff.

[00:02:14] Like I'll do the main stage presentations.

[00:02:15] I'll talk to reporters and jump on the grenade when there's OTV media ops, stuff like that.

[00:02:21] It's a ton of fun.

[00:02:22] But, uh, look, honestly, that's not all where it started.

[00:02:25] I think I grew up a long, long time ago, like kind of any kid, just, I don't know, thinking, hey, I want to make video games or I want to be a hacker like I see in the movies because that Hollywood stuff looks very, very cool.

[00:02:38] And way back when I started to Google and look around on the internet, it's just how to be a hacker.

[00:02:43] I remember typing that in.

[00:02:44] Um, and I had found, I think what was Eric S Raymond and his blog a long time ago that saying, look, if you want to be a hacker, you got to learn how to program.

[00:02:54] I just know some coding, some scripting.

[00:02:56] And at the time they suggested learning that Python programming language.

[00:02:59] So in that early, early days, I was thinking, okay, well, I'll learn how to make stuff.

[00:03:04] Like, again, I want to make video games or whatever.

[00:03:06] I'll build and I'll write code.

[00:03:07] It wasn't until I got to really my undergraduate.

[00:03:11] And I attended the, uh, us coast guard Academy, one of the military institutions for college and school.

[00:03:17] But with the military flair to it, they care a lot more about, Hey, is this thing secure?

[00:03:22] Is it safe?

[00:03:23] I know you can make this, but can anyone break this?

[00:03:27] And that's what opened the floodgates for capture the flag and vulnerabilities and exploits and the whole wide world of cybersecurity.

[00:03:35] But fell in love with that because man, there's a heck of a lot of meaning and fulfillment for what we do.

[00:03:40] Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a cool story.

[00:03:42] And it's, uh, you know, interesting to kind of hear your, hear your background, because one of the things that we have a lot of people listening that are trying to break into the industry or just starting out.

[00:03:51] And these, these origin stories help motivate people and kind of see, you know, what's possible.

[00:03:57] So one of the things I do was wanting to ask you is you hear a lot of times, you know, the OSCP kind of gets a bad rap.

[00:04:04] Sometimes you hear some people saying it's CTF like, and one of the things I kind of argue, my point is CTF like is more difficult than real world.

[00:04:13] In my opinion, for the fact that you see the certain vulnerability, typically on a pen test, you see this particular vulnerability.

[00:04:19] Usually you're going to be able to exploit it, but sometimes they throw in things that are kind of tricky that just kind of, it may not actually be the actual exploit that you're able to pwn the server with.

[00:04:30] And there could be something else in place.

[00:04:32] So it makes it more difficult.

[00:04:33] So kind of, you know, I know you are a big proponent of CTFs.

[00:04:38] If you wouldn't mind sharing your advice on that.

[00:04:40] Oh, absolutely.

[00:04:41] And thank you for asking, because I am really in total agreement.

[00:04:45] I know, oh, CTF like is something that people tend to say to poo poo on some training or for some exercises.

[00:04:52] But in my mind, no, that, that, that's great.

[00:04:55] I think that's a benefit when you do get a little bit of extra exercise and it kind of stretches you to think outside the box.

[00:05:03] And I know we were, oh, comparing, contrasting with real world.

[00:05:06] But when I talk to a lot of ethical hackers and penetration testers and folks that do, even on the blue team and defense, like stuff can tend to get formulaic.

[00:05:17] Like there's a playbook, there's a checklist.

[00:05:19] There is a order of operations and procedure that you tend to go through as you've honed your craft.

[00:05:25] But I think in a capture the flag environment and CTF like in big air quotes, no, you kind of have to get scrappy.

[00:05:32] You kind of have to be quick on your feet, be thinking critically, be trying to bob and weave and maneuver to different things that maybe weren't part of, oh, the checklist or the procedure that we've all just kind of grown accustomed to.

[00:05:45] I think it's very, very cool to get more exposure and new tests and new capability that maybe you hadn't seen before.

[00:05:52] Yeah.

[00:05:52] Another thing I think makes sense too, because you see a lot of the colleges doing national cyber league, which is like a CTF competition.

[00:05:58] You see the CCDCs that are kind of similar.

[00:06:01] And, you know, I've heard of people actually get job offers because they did well in the CTF.

[00:06:06] One of our local folks in the area that's really good at CTFs, he used to run the CTF at Dallas Hackers Association.

[00:06:12] He got offered a job through Raytheon because he was, I believe it was at, it was at a conference in Austin.

[00:06:17] It might've been besides Austin, but at any rate, he did well enough on a CTF that he got offered a job.

[00:06:23] So, I mean, that just kind of adds validity to the fact that, you know, doing CTFs are a little more difficult than just the real world.

[00:06:31] Nice.

[00:06:31] And hey, congratulations.

[00:06:32] But you think at the end of the day, it is just a testament to the merit and the competency and being able to do it for real.

[00:06:40] I think the technical work on the keyboard is very, very different from kind of just talking about cybersecurity.

[00:06:46] There are pros and cons to both, right?

[00:06:48] Hey, we kind of need everybody to do everything at the end of the day.

[00:06:51] But I think really when you can show your skills and a capture the flag scenario, that's awesome.

[00:06:57] More power to you.

[00:06:57] So speaking of, so that's a good way to kind of hone your skills and kind of use what you've learned.

[00:07:03] So what do you recommend for folks that are wanting to become penetration testers?

[00:07:06] What kind of training do you recommend?

[00:07:08] Well, look, I will hang my hat on capture the flag.

[00:07:11] And I think there are a ton of resources out and about.

[00:07:14] I've always been a huge proponent of looking for a lot of just accessible online resources and material that you can find just from a Google search.

[00:07:22] You can find on YouTube.

[00:07:24] Obviously, I tend to try to put out some videos and material to walk through certain scenarios and demonstrations.

[00:07:31] And I hope that that's kind of always been something I pride myself on is just really getting a chance to show you the real thing.

[00:07:38] So it's kind of like an over-the-shoulder demo where, hey, we're not making any jump cuts or cutting too many corners or not taking all these shortcuts.

[00:07:47] I want to show you each and every bit, all the mistakes, all the rabbit holes, things that we kind of bump our head against because that's where a lot of the real learning comes from.

[00:07:54] But there are tons of great online platforms.

[00:07:57] And if I may say, I'm trying to throw my hat in the ring in that field.

[00:08:01] Look, some sweet new activity, a venture that I've been kind of scheming up with a great, incredible team of folks and a great partner and teammate, Don Donzel.

[00:08:10] Folks might be familiar with him.

[00:08:12] We're putting together this kind of platform that I like to call Just Hacking Training, a kind of shorthand nickname, acronym J-H-T, but building up free, accessible, and a lot of times in many cases, like a name your price or pay what you can, pay what you want set up for exercises, for activities, for old capture the flag archives, for hack along scenarios where you'll have a video to kind of help guide you through things.

[00:08:36] And what you might be more accustomed to in a traditional course or curriculum and path with a whole lot of lessons.

[00:08:43] But I'm having a lot of fun with it so far, and it's great to see it start to grow and flower a bit.

[00:08:49] Yeah.

[00:08:49] So why don't you kind of describe some of the different areas?

[00:08:51] Because I know I had spoke with Don when he was telling me about it, and just to kind of let everyone know if you want to find out more about Don Donzel, check out episode one of The Philip Wiley Show.

[00:09:01] Don was my first guest, so y'all should go check that one out.

[00:09:03] But at any rate, if you wouldn't just, because Don kind of showed me how it's laid out, but if you might share with the listeners the different formats of training you have on the platform.

[00:09:11] Thank you.

[00:09:12] Well, look, I think we were both realizing that when folks tend to, hey, go for some training or for some course or for something that they do want to learn from, when it's even a ginormous or long and lengthy curriculum, I don't know, 50 hours of content, 100 hours of content, blah, blah, blah.

[00:09:30] That sometimes sounds enticing, but in the moment when you're really starting to tackle it, it can be a little bit intimidating.

[00:09:37] And I think more often than not, people don't finish the training or the courses that they're kind of adding to their collection and a little Pokemon game, collect them all.

[00:09:46] But we realized like, okay, well, can we make some practical hands-on and really focused technical training for any different level?

[00:09:55] Hey, beginner, intermediate, advanced.

[00:09:56] And we thought, let's make this buffet assortment where we've got what we call upskill challenges.

[00:10:02] And those are the free bite-sized stuff that really you could knock out at 10, 20, 30 minutes just to, hey, get a little bit of a hit.

[00:10:08] Hey, something fun, a new adrenaline rush where you go tackle something new.

[00:10:12] We're thinking hack-along videos, as I mentioned, where, oh, you've got some activity alongside maybe a half hour to an hour or maybe a two-hour video.

[00:10:20] And then as we grow further and further, yeah, the full-blown course.

[00:10:24] So really, I think it boils down to four different kind of ways you can get a lot of the training and exercises.

[00:10:30] Capture the Flag Archives was the one I didn't mention, but upskill challenges, hack-along scenarios, and courses and paths.

[00:10:37] Yeah, that's nice.

[00:10:37] It's nice that you're making things affordable and accessible to more people.

[00:10:41] But what else is nice is that you actually have some free content on there too, which not all the different education platforms offer, but I think that's great.

[00:10:47] And as far as some of the folks that are, because you've got other people creating content as well.

[00:10:52] So if you could kind of share some of those people that are helping out with the educational content.

[00:10:56] Yeah, and thank you so much for asking.

[00:10:58] That's funny.

[00:10:59] I realize I can't – I don't.

[00:11:02] I don't have a ton of time to help pour into all of it because I still would like to be continuing a lot of the YouTube work and free content and videos that I already produce.

[00:11:11] So knowing that we're going to, hey, have a great team, a really cool cadre, Don likes to call it an all-star lineup, which I can't help but agree with.

[00:11:20] That is an incredible amount of people and great, phenomenal folks.

[00:11:23] We've got Michelle Khan, who's been working on some open source intelligence.

[00:11:27] We have Slavi, who – his last name always escapes me, but he's been putting together some incredible Active Directory work and now even new levels up for that.

[00:11:36] We have Katie Paxson-Fear, who a lot of folks might know as Insider PhD.

[00:11:40] She's been doing some API, GraphQL work.

[00:11:43] Joe Helley's in the mix.

[00:11:44] He's putting together some Python and PowerShell command and control frameworks, Anton Ovoruski, even some blue teamwork because it's not all just hacking as an offensive pen test red teamwork.

[00:11:55] But, hey, it's the whole scene.

[00:11:56] It's the whole cybersecurity world here.

[00:11:59] And I don't think I'm letting the cat out of the bag, if I may say, but, Philip, I'm super-duper grateful you're helping join the fun just as well.

[00:12:06] Yes, I've been – I had another platform before that was given to me for free, and the platform didn't last, and they kind of stopped offering it before it really got launched.

[00:12:18] And so I was looking for another platform and not a better team of people to team up with.

[00:12:23] So I'm honored to be a part of it.

[00:12:25] And for those listening, get an episode.

[00:12:28] By this time, you've probably – if you missed it, go back and watch it.

[00:12:31] But Michel Kahn did an episode we recorded yesterday.

[00:12:35] That'll be available.

[00:12:36] And so Michel does some really awesome OSINT content.

[00:12:39] So that's a really good place to find it.

[00:12:41] I mean, there's other people that put out OSINT content, but I think he's one of the best.

[00:12:46] So you definitely want to check that out.

[00:12:47] Yeah, I'm extremely grateful for all of his help and support.

[00:12:50] He's been a real champion getting things off the ground because he's so ecstatic and so passionate about open source intelligence.

[00:12:57] And even beyond that, OPSEC, operational security, geo-int, or hey, gutting some intelligence of pictures, of media, finding location in the real world.

[00:13:06] I spent some time with him on a live stream to help showcase and flex his muscles.

[00:13:10] But my goodness, he's a wizard.

[00:13:12] He's doing incredible, phenomenal stuff.

[00:13:14] And I'm just grateful to collaborate and really, as you mentioned, just, hey, get a crew of people to share their knowledge, to share all the sweet stuff, to get more education, awareness out and about.

[00:13:24] Very cool.

[00:13:25] So back kind of on the education topic, you know, job-wise, what are your thoughts on certifications?

[00:13:31] Are they a requirement to get a job in cybersecurity?

[00:13:33] I think, and I know, I don't know, maybe a couple years and more into this now, I've maybe found myself in a sort of three-prong approach to certifications.

[00:13:47] And, oh, the stamp.

[00:13:49] Oh, hey, the little scratch and sniff sticker that said you ran through this training and you passed this exam.

[00:13:53] I think in the early days, trying to land your first job, trying to break into the industry, without a doubt, it does help you land an interview or start some new conversations and network.

[00:14:04] I think it absolutely can be a foot in the door to have some new opportunities maybe that you wouldn't have had otherwise because you just don't have those receipts, accolades, or credentials quite yet.

[00:14:15] With that said, I think once you get into the role, I think once you start to, hey, be a part of the job, be a part of the environment in the industry, maybe you're in a middle stage where you're thinking these CTFs or these certificates and these trainings and things was really fun and cool.

[00:14:32] Because that's how we got into action here.

[00:14:34] That's cutting my teeth on these certifications.

[00:14:36] Then you might want to tackle a few more.

[00:14:38] And that's good for your learning and for your growth.

[00:14:40] But then if you maybe find yourself more and more senior, I think, or I've got to admit where I am now, I am very happy and super content where I am.

[00:14:49] So I'm not going to be chasing certificates all too much more.

[00:14:52] Again, they're just for funsies, but not something that I feel like we need in the moment.

[00:14:56] But without a doubt for beginners, if you can afford it, if you can, if it's in the budget and it's something you can get part of your resume and your profile, it's worth chasing anything that you can to keep adding more to your toolkit.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] So it's kind of interesting to see that because I've some of the, some people I know in the industry that are really good that don't have certifications.

[00:15:17] The kind of you mentioned sometimes just trying to get your foot in the door when you're just getting started out can be kind of difficult.

[00:15:23] But yeah, and it seems like once you kind of get experience, it's not, not as necessary because I mean, I see a lot of folks that are doing pretty well without the certifications, but definitely can be helpful.

[00:15:34] It does.

[00:15:35] There is a lot of nuance there.

[00:15:37] And right.

[00:15:37] And the question is like, do you need a certification?

[00:15:41] Do you need a certifications keyword that are being need?

[00:15:44] Look, it's not an end all be all absolute must have, but it can help without a doubt.

[00:15:50] Those are the things, no matter what they are that, oh, separate you from other candidates or hey folks in the scene.

[00:15:56] So anything and everything that you might be able to, it will help.

[00:16:00] I know you can crawl, walk, run.

[00:16:01] Well, you can run a little bit faster when you've got all these things helping you scoot along.

[00:16:07] Yeah, they definitely seem to help me because my first, my second pen test job, you had to go through like some challenge where they gave you a vulnerable machine to perform a pen test against.

[00:16:17] And the person that referred me actually, the episode of the podcast out this week is Wirefall, the founder of Dallas Hackers Association.

[00:16:26] So when he got me on where he was at, you know, when they're asking, do we need to give him the technical assessment?

[00:16:30] He said he has the OSCP.

[00:16:32] I think he knows what he's doing or whatever.

[00:16:33] So I did help in that, that instance.

[00:16:35] But it's kind of interesting to, to see all the different certifications over the years.

[00:16:39] And it's, you know, you've had the SAN stuff, which is extremely expensive and the offensive security stuff is a little bit more affordable, but it's, I know it can be kind of difficult to kind of navigate which certification.

[00:16:50] So if someone's going after a certification for pen testing, what would you recommend?

[00:16:54] Ooh.

[00:16:54] Ooh.

[00:16:56] I got to admit, I do still probably fall back on really tried and true OSCP, the offensive security certified professional.

[00:17:06] I think that is still, just as you mentioned a moment ago, like, Hey, someone says, Oh, they've got OSCP knocked out.

[00:17:12] They checked the box.

[00:17:13] You've got to at least baseline and understanding like, Oh, okay.

[00:17:16] This person knows.

[00:17:17] And can, in a moment, you just kind of have an understanding he's done enough to still have that title and earn it.

[00:17:22] I think, of course, there are others that, Hey, join in, try to enter the market to either replace or get in the way of, but I know that OSCP has been working hard to get that modernized and updated.

[00:17:34] And I think they've done a good job of it.

[00:17:37] Like there was absolutely a need for active directory, a little bit more emphasis in the windows world, which is what you tend to really see.

[00:17:43] Not just a, Oh, five weird assortment of Linux boxes.

[00:17:47] You just pop with a couple exploits, but no, there's a network architecture.

[00:17:51] There's a topology.

[00:17:51] There's a domain.

[00:17:52] And even now I think you start to see that is what you're going to come across without a doubt.

[00:17:57] You've got to got, you have to have some active directory chops.

[00:18:00] So OSCP still coming to life in a great, great way.

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] Speaking of certs, I know you're an OSCP holder, but I remember you were like one of the first OSCE of the new OSCE that required the three different exams.

[00:18:11] Yes.

[00:18:12] And thank you.

[00:18:12] That was a cool moment of pride.

[00:18:15] Offensive security has put out or off sec, forgive me.

[00:18:18] I mean, they've now built out their web exploitation track.

[00:18:21] They've built out some of their binary exploitation and like exploit development.

[00:18:24] So their halo certification, that OSCE three is kind of the culmination of the intermediate to advanced tracks in there.

[00:18:32] And I have a lovely and very humbling and sweet email from the CEO that said, John, you got there first.

[00:18:40] You were the first one to enter that little hall of fame.

[00:18:43] So I'm very, very flattered.

[00:18:44] Very cool.

[00:18:45] So one of the things we definitely want to discuss with you because it's seemed to have helped your career a lot is content creation.

[00:18:52] Because I know, you know, we're kind of living in a world that you see some folks that, you know, there's some people in our industry that they kind of got their start because they're doing content creation.

[00:19:00] Some people were, you know, creating content to document their journey into cybersecurity.

[00:19:07] But then there's folks like you that have been around for a while that did content creation and it really seemed to really help your career take off.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] And I love chatting about it.

[00:19:16] So forgive me if I'm rambling, but you're absolutely right.

[00:19:19] You hit the nail on the head.

[00:19:20] There are so many perks.

[00:19:22] There are so many benefits.

[00:19:23] There are so many new opportunities that open up.

[00:19:25] When you're willing to put yourself out there and share some content and get videos, get write-ups, get blogs, get your projects out and about.

[00:19:35] In the early days, because as you mentioned, John, you've been doing this for a while.

[00:19:38] It's been a decade and a half, really.

[00:19:41] You could go find videos dating back to 2009 for me, which is kind of wild.

[00:19:46] But I hoped that I was documenting my process as I was learning and trying to solve those capture-the-flag challenges or work through those war games.

[00:19:56] And then even now, find myself in the industry and start to explore what's real cybercrime look like.

[00:20:02] Ransomware threats, penetration testing techniques, tactics, techniques, and procedures.

[00:20:06] So I hope all along the way, I've been showing the stuff that I think is cool, the stuff that I like and I'm interested in.

[00:20:14] And it's been a blessing to see a lot of other folks resonate with that and it grow and flower and blossom a little bit.

[00:20:20] But absolutely, the job opportunities that have came to me, either Huntress and even some before, that have said,

[00:20:27] John, you're doing really cool stuff.

[00:20:29] You've proven work, merit, competency with everything you've showcased in your demos.

[00:20:34] Do you want to come join the party?

[00:20:35] So without a doubt.

[00:20:37] Yeah, it's really pretty cool.

[00:20:38] And one of the things I have to give you props to is the fact that you stuck with it.

[00:20:42] As someone kind of follows your journey, they can kind of see the hard work.

[00:20:47] And you kind of really started the content creation, especially in our area, before it was really big, before it was popular.

[00:20:53] Because you see some people that come along at the right time.

[00:20:57] And you have to give them credit.

[00:20:59] They did try hard, put a lot of effort in.

[00:21:01] Because from anything I've seen is it takes a lot of work to be successful in content creation.

[00:21:06] You have to be consistently creating new content to really get ahead.

[00:21:11] But just one of the things I like about your story is I think it looks more realistic or seems more believable or achievable that, you know, you're at a high level of success.

[00:21:21] But it wasn't like some of it was.

[00:21:23] And, you know, just, you know, had overnight success.

[00:21:25] You put in a lot of hard work.

[00:21:26] And just to let people, you know, kind of see.

[00:21:30] I think that's a good, you know, a good story to share based on how well you've done.

[00:21:34] And I just know just the popularity and everything and just see how you've grown.

[00:21:40] Even though we haven't, you know, I guess I first probably found out about you before the pandemic.

[00:21:45] But then just to see how your career has grown just since then.

[00:21:48] Well, thank you so much.

[00:21:49] Very sweet.

[00:21:50] And it's a team effort.

[00:21:52] All of us are working towards that goal, that treasure, whatever direction that kind of fuels them.

[00:21:57] And I hope it's something we can do, community, as a family.

[00:22:00] Not to say family, but, you know, I think it is a rising tide raises all boats.

[00:22:05] Folks tend to say that, but I think we really do mean it.

[00:22:07] Yeah, and it's good, like you said, because people like yourself have just kind of really kind of created a niche for other people coming along to do.

[00:22:15] Because some of the newer folks that, for instance, like InfoSecPat, he's fairly new, but he's done pretty well.

[00:22:23] And he's had some pretty good success.

[00:22:24] So I think it's really great that people like yourself has kind of set the stage for those that followed.

[00:22:29] Thank you.

[00:22:30] Yeah, I think it's great.

[00:22:31] So one of the things that I've been trying to share with folks, too, that are trying to get started is the fact that, you know, you can do content creation nowadays to, you know, help your career.

[00:22:43] And one of the things that's interesting, too, just to kind of share about that world topic is even public speaking.

[00:22:48] We had someone from our local community.

[00:22:50] There was a recent college grad that spoke at our local DEF CON group, and he did a presentation on malware analysis.

[00:22:58] And the hiring manager from Citigroup was in the audience.

[00:23:01] He worked in instant response.

[00:23:02] So the guy got an interview and got a job through it, you know, from getting out there and, you know, speaking on the subject.

[00:23:10] And it's not always, you know, just different ways to demonstrate your skills.

[00:23:14] But one of the things I've been really trying to tell people, trying to get into it, even if you don't want to be on camera, you could do stuff without being on camera.

[00:23:21] You can write and other things.

[00:23:23] Excellent.

[00:23:23] That is awesome.

[00:23:24] I don't know.

[00:23:25] I would love to emphasize footstop, whatever, really hone in on show your work.

[00:23:29] And that's what I try to say, the cutesy mantra slogan, right?

[00:23:34] But like genuinely share, share your knowledge, put it out there so other people can see it, so they can learn from it.

[00:23:40] And you have no idea what could come from it.

[00:23:43] It's worthwhile to do.

[00:23:44] Yes.

[00:23:44] So we're getting down towards the end of the show.

[00:23:46] Is there anything you'd like to share before we end this episode?

[00:23:48] Goodness.

[00:23:49] Well, I had a blast.

[00:23:51] Thank you so much, Philip.

[00:23:51] But hey, I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to come hang out with you all.

[00:23:56] And I hope that if you are still learning, chasing that passion, fueling that fire, that maybe you'd be willing to go take a look at all the sweet stuff that we're up to.

[00:24:05] The YouTube material, videos, and content isn't going to stop from me.

[00:24:09] But it's fun for us to try and experiment with even new projects and ventures.

[00:24:14] Just hacking training is something that I am especially excited about.

[00:24:17] So if you have ever learned anything from me, I'm trying to help spread, share, just as everything we've been chatting about.

[00:24:25] Let folks, let Michelle, let Philip, let hey, Wade, maybe we've got some other incredible friends, learn from them just as well.

[00:24:32] So we'd love to see you check it out, justthehacking.com.

[00:24:35] And I'm grateful for all the support and love from you.

[00:24:38] Right back at you.

[00:24:39] Yeah, thanks.

[00:24:40] And one of the things, folks, we will be including all John's socials in the link to his new training site in the show notes.

[00:24:47] Excellent.

[00:24:48] Thank you again, Philip.

[00:24:49] This was a real treat.

[00:24:50] Thank you.

[00:24:50] I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule.

[00:24:52] And thanks, everyone.

[00:24:53] We'll see you on the next episode.

[00:24:57] Thank you for listening to The Philip Wiley Show.

[00:25:00] Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes.

[00:25:03] In the meantime, to learn more about Philip, go to thehackermaker.com and connect with him on LinkedIn and Twitter at Philip Wiley.

[00:25:13] Until next time.